As of April 26, 2024 Donald Trump hasn’t stopped violating his Judge Merchan gag order. Until the punishments are strong enough to make him stop, we need totake steps to stop and punish his followers, who make threats on his behalf.
Marcy Wheeler was on the Nicole Sandler show last week talking about Donald Trump’s systematic threatening of his critics and how normalized political violence is for anybody who comes up against Donald Trump. I’ve written about, and asked a lot of questions about, how threats online and social media have an impact and what can be done about them. It was great to hear from Marcy the scope of the problem, how it involves the legal system, the media, social media and gave some names of major players who make threats on social media and get away with it.
“There is nobody who is on the wrong side of Donald Trump who is not stalked, who does not face mob violence, and it is systematic.
There’s a group of these people, Jesse Watters, we talked about. Jack Posobiec is always involved. Mike Cernovich is always involved. These people in Roger Stone’s world. They have the ability to go find these people, they have the ability to stoke violence, they have the ability to terrify people. And it has been going on for years.
Marcy Wheeler, on the Nicole Sandler show 4-19-2024
Jack Posobiec and Roger StoneMike Cernovich
She points out how for the right it’s okay if it’s just Lisa Page and Peter Strzok. If it’s Michael Cohen, it’s okay. If it’s Marie Yovanovitch, it’s okay. If it’s the whistleblower, it’s okay. She had thought that when Don Bacon’s wife was threatened and had to sleep with a gun under her pillow, the Republicans might have done something. But they haven’t. They are quiet or they do what Republican Mike Gallagher just did, quit.
Marcy said that right now it’s the moment where we have to figure out how to get Trump through the trial.
My question is “What can be done to deter his followers from making more threats to jurors?” I don’t expect to stop them entirely. But there ARE ways. Law enforcement and the courts in NYC knew this was coming. They should be prepared to protect the jurors, AND arrest the people who are threatening them.
I’m betting there have already been threats, but people haven’t been arrested yet. One thing that we have learned is that law enforcement doesn’t want to talk about the scale and scope of the threats. Why? They give multiple reasons, but some are excuses for their failures: 1) The need to confirm who made the threats 2) Confirm that the threats were violations of specific laws, and for True Threats, the intention of the people making the threat. 3) They need evidence for indictments for the laws that were broken
We have seen they go after the most blatant and obvious first threats first, hoping that will act as a deterrent for others. They don’t charge people who making vague mob type threats, because they are hard to pin down. But based on the history of the scale and scope of the PREVIOUS threats to judges, prosecutors, witnesses and their families, there will be LOTS to solid, clearly illegal threats choose from.
Arrests aren’t deterrents if nobody knows they happened
If I was in charge of promoting a “Protect the Jurors” campaign, starting this week I’d be pushing stories about the people who have been arrested for threatening the jurors. If they don’t have current cases, I’d look at historical cases where the person was arrested and convicted. I would include threats to people in person, on the phone, via email and on social media.
I talked to Glenn Kirschner about the steps the legal system takes for protecting jurors (and witnesses). He said when jurors are contacted (or threatened) they are supposed to tell the court immediately. Then three law enforcement agencies are involved: local, state & Feds. Because of this there needs to be a coordinated response. The Feds do the interstate threats, like social media. The locals do the in-person threats. Here is what I want to know now, but we probably won’t be told:
Are the Feds already monitoring the juror’s social media accounts? If not, when do they start? After they get their first threat? The COURTS already know the names of all the jurors and their social media accounts, are they being monitored by law enforcement looking for threats? If they spot threats what do they do? Do they contact the social media companies with subpoenas to get the information of who is making the threat? BTW, social media companies must comply with law enforcement subpoenas to provide information it’s part of all of their TOS, that includes Truth Social and X.
Who is monitoring the juror’s phone calls and emails? We know from the threats to Judge Engoron’s clerk that she was getting constant calls they 275 pages of transcribed voicemail threats. But the only REASON we know how huge it was is because the New York State Court public safety people took that information to the media because LAW ENFORCEMENT WASN’T DOING ENOUGH TO PROTECT Engoron’s clerk and staff.
People need to know that it is not the practice of any law enforcement agency to tell the media about the scale and scope of threats, nor the status of investigations.
Here’s the thing, law enforcement doesn’t want to charge people for their online threats, but they CAN. And when they do, those arrests need to be publicized. But right now they aren’t.
Did you know that Tyler Vogel, 26, from Lancaster New York was arrested for threatening AG Letitia James and State Supreme Court Justice Arthur Engoron? Did you see his mug shot in any media stories? I haven’t, and I looked. I did find ONE photo in a story about the threat ON TikTok! I’m not using it here because I couldn’t confirm it was from an official source. I don’t know the reason for not providing the mugshot to the media, but I’m sure they have an answer. Maybe I’ll call and find out.
If law enforcement doesn’t want to put up the photos of people arrested for making threats, maybe they can see the mugshots of the people who have been convicted for making threats on social media.
Taylor Taranto, a Jan6er, went to Obama’s home with a van full of explosives after Trump posted the address on Truth Social
“[Taranto] started engaging in whole martyrdom complex outside the DC jail and it got so bad he was such an disturbed person that even those nut jobs outside the DC jail said, “Please don’t come back.” And one day Donald Trump posted Barack Obama’s Kalorama address on Truth Social and that dude started stalking Barack Obama in Kalorama. And he was arrested for that stalking. He was arrested because he had a van with explosives in it. And he was he was hunting down a Secret Service protected former President, and it feels like you should be able to hold Trump accountable for that.”
Marcy Wheeler @Emptywheel on the Nicole Sandler show
A cardboard cut out of Donald Trump with Jan6er Taylor Taranto Photo of Taylor Taranto, the building he threatened to blow up, a weapon found in the car when he went to Obama home address
“We really have to find a way to shame people for this kind of witness intimidation, because it’s going on everywhere. And it is one of the most toxic things in our politics right now. And we just haven’t had that conversation as a society.”
I don’t think we are going to “have a conversation as a society” about this unless we push for it. To do that
MULTIPLE PEOPLE NEED TO BE ARRESTED, TRIED & SENT TO JAIL FOR THEIR THREATS TO JURORS TO ACT AS A DETERRENT
I think that the DOJ needs to make a big deal about the threats to jurors. There needs to be PR about it beyond putting out a press release. But it won’t be about Trump, because as Marcy said, “Trump is very, very, very, very skilled at like toeing the line. He’s like a little child, a toddler who knows exactly how much he can get away with, and how to be most effective when he is doing that. And so in this case, in the Taylor Taranto case, all he did was post, somewhat public information. He didn’t say go, “Go stalk Barack Obama.” It is just the fact, and he knows this, that his followers are going to respond to that. And then people like Jack Posobiec, they’re going to ratchet it up, they’re going to say, “We need to defend our guy, we need to hunt out the dissident.”
Truth Social, GAB and Patriot(dot)Win have ALL provided detailed info in the past to law enforcement when a subpoena is provided. People on Social Media are NOT “anonymous” to the companies that post their information. Law enforcement can get their identities, can determine if they have likely broken laws, get a warrant and arrest them. The people will have a chance to challenge the arrest in the court system, this is good, some might be found to have NOT violated the law. BUT if there are NO PUBLIC arrests, then there will be NO deterrents for threats.
Jena Griswold, the Colorado Secretary of State was on Chris Hayes talking about the threats she got and revealed that there was a 600% increase in threats to her and staff. 600% WTF?
That day, she received an email declaring: “We are coming for you bitch.” Another person emailed, “If you have kids, I hope they get murdered by illegal aliens,” adding, “Seriously, just die.”
In a voicemail, someone said, “I can’t wait to find you and follow you to your house and expose your address.” Another person left a voicemail saying, “I’d love for you to die.” Some time this month, a person told Griswold on social media, “Take my advice and wear Kevlar … a lot of Kevlar!!!”
‘Just Die’: Colorado Elections Chief Who Took on Trump Sees 600% Spike in Threats, By Andrew Perez, Adam Rawnsley, Ryan Bort, Asawin Suebsaeng March 28, 2024
On these cable news segments we often hear some specific threats, but unless someone counts all the threats, and then tells the media about them, we never know just how huge the problem is. And if we don’t know how huge the problem is, we also don’t know how terrible the response to the . . . → Read More: A 600% increase in threats! Hey DOJ, where are the arrests?
Two of Trump’s worst nightmares are happening right now, he’s broke and people are laughing at him.It’s glorious! I’m enjoying these 24 hours of knowing he’s squirming. In this clip you can see how Eric Trump is personally experiencing his Dad’s humiliation at the hands of bankers and bond companies.Eric Trump Sunday interview on Fox News, host Maria Bartiromo
“When I came to them saying, ‘Hey, can I get a 1/2 billion dollar bond?’ Maria they were laughing!”
-Eric Trump to Maria Bartiromo on Fox 3-24-2024
It’s interesting that Eric is doing this. Why not Daddy? Because they know Donald always get revenge against people who laugh at him and don’t do what he wants. On Monday there will be some story about how Trump leveraged the recent IPO to get the money for a bond. Or he’ll file for a Double Secret Special Extension that will kick the can down the road 30 days. Or, he’ll get the money from “outside the US” (I noted that Eric used that phrase intentionally twice, he’s setting it up for a “We had to go outside the US because no one would do it in the US!” We’ll . . . → Read More: They’re all laughing at you Trump!
Did you know that Judge Scott McAfee delayed his written order on Willis and Wade for a week because he had been receiving threats? He needed time for proper security to be in place for him and his family. The ONLY source that I found who mentioned this was Kyle Griffin at MSNBC.
This really PISSES ME OFF. I try to be all logical about the reasons the threats keep working and point to solutions, but I’m really sick and tired of the BS excuses by law enforcement when it comes to dealing with threats from the MAGA base to the judges, prosecutors, witnesses, jurors AND THEIR FAMILIES, in Donald Trump’s legal cases.
I’m a fast talker but slow writer so I dictated my thoughts to Otter.AI (a service I use to transcribe videos). It has a feature to summarize what you said and provide action items. It worked surprisingly well!
Spocko is frustrated with the lack of action taken by law enforcement to address threats made against judges and their families. He argues that local law enforcement should have anticipated and prepared for these threats, but their failure to do so is driving him ‘nuts.’
I just read Barb McQuade’s new book. Attack from Within. How Disinformation is Sabotaging America. I had planned to go see her in person at the Commonwealth Club and ask her some questions, but it was sold out, plus I knew what would happen, the first person at the mic would say, “I don’t have a question so much as a 3 part comment ” and talk for 5 minutes.” (I’m guilty of that myself, I even used that phrasing as a joke line with my friend Cory Doctorow and Annalee Newitz at his book reading for Red Team Blues. )My goal when asking book authors questions is to help them amplify the parts I see as important in a memorable way. Especially for an audience that needs to hear it, but will likely never read the book.So when I heard Barb was going to be on the Nicole Sandler show I wrote Nicole and said, “I think the most important point Barb makes in the book is that with social media our old metaphors of speech & debate are out of date and they are being used against us. Please get Barb to repeat this, with examples! . . . → Read More: Americans old metaphors about free speech & debate don’t work with social media. But we still cling to them says Barb McQuade
This court has proven with its actions—through one politically motivated decision after another—that it is unfit to wield the power that it does.”
The Supreme Court Must Be Stopped, Elie Mystal in the Nation. March 1, 2024
I agree with Elie. So what do we do? I’m an activist and I know that there are multiple steps to make something happen. Elie has thoughts about changing how we in the public perceive the court. Elie said, “The first step toward stopping the Supreme Court’s political actions is to treat the justices as political actors and subject them to all of the scrutiny, pressure, and protest normal political actors face every day. ” I like the way my friend Lisa Graves referred to them on the Nicole Sandler show “Politicians in robes.”
How we treat politicians in American is very different than how we treat Supreme Court Justices. We questions them, we have processes for getting rid of them when they do a bad job. Part of our perception comes from how the media treat them. That needs to change. When our perception of the court changes, so should our response to them. I LOVE the work that has . . . → Read More: How do we stop the Supreme Court?
Jamison Foser wrote an excellent piece about how the media disconnects the threat of violence from Trump and his supporters from the 14th Amendment court case. I read that and my first thought was, “Yes!” Then, “What can I do?” Followed by, “Do I have to write about it again? My brain gets tired just thinking about this! Where’s my Sodastream diet cola?” Some thoughts one liter later:1) The media doesn’t want to say it, but the threats from Donald Trump needed to be stopped years ago. Now to stop him it will involve putting him in pre-trial detention, with no direct access to social media, as the law provides.
2) Law enforcement doesn’t want to say it, but it takes too much time, money and human resources to find and arrest people making threats. So they just say, “It’s “protected” political speech and don’t charge anyone. 3) Legislators don’t want to pass laws that would appear to be targeting conservatives. Even suggesting it sends them into gaslighting hissy fits. “They want to send the FBI after me just because of a difference of opinion!” 4) Social Media companies don’t want to enforce their own Terms of Service . . . → Read More: What will it take to stop the threats of violence?
The White Nationalist group Patriot Front was confused by the turnstiles at NYC’s World Trade Center PATH station. It reminded me of this classic turnstile scene with Slim Pickens in Blazing Saddles.
But seriously folks, who is the Patriot Front and how can they be defeated once they figure out how to use turnstiles? In June I talked to Matt Binder on the Doomed podcast about Patriot Front, the Neo-Nazis group seen in this clip. They wear the same hats, khakis and gatherers on their faces when they go to Pride events, Juneteenth parades and other events.
The Patriot Front may appear dumb here, but they are very clever at avoiding being prosecuted for their use of threats online and in person. One organization that figured out how to fight them is the called Task Force Butler Institute. Their tag line: Veterans Fighting Fascism
From the Task Force Butler website under What We Do
Hold Extremists Accountable
For far too long neo-nazi, white supremacist, and fascist organizations have been able to terrorize vulnerable Americans and erode our democracy without paying a price.
The size of the financial judgement against Rudy Giuliani should come tomorrow. The first question people will have is. “Will he pay?” The rich have lots of tricks to avoid paying. Here’s a bit of good news from Barb Mcquade.
“Intentional torts, like defamation, are NOT dischargeable in bankruptcy.
And so it may be that Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss are able to chase Rudy Giuliani to his grave to catch every penny they can out of his pockets.”
barb Mcquade
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